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Sta.sh
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Lol wut?
"Religion is the opiate of the people" -Karl Marx
Communism and religion cann't coexist together. In a communist state the dictator(Stalin, Mao, ect.) is hostile to the worship of God because he himself wants his people to worship him as a God. Instead of the Bible its now the Communist Manifesto and so on. Communism is an atheistic religion.
`as Russell stated, they those inhumanity not in the name of atheism`
should be
`as Russel stated, those inhumanity are not in the name of atheism`
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""Art is not a matter of what, but how."
~ (attributed to) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
[Gallery] - Yes, I do various things.
First, we have to differentiate between the thought of Marx & Engels (as the conceiver of the original thought) with the Communist dictators (as the later interpreter).
Marx did say "religion is the opiate of the people", but we should not take this as a posit that he is against God. He is against religion (because he thought religion is a tool used by bourgeois to oppress the working class by giving them an illusion of eternal happiness a.k.a. heaven), but there is no indication that he is against God or wanted to be God. If he wanted people to worship him as a God, then it would be contradictory; as Marx demands no hierarchy (God - servant relationship would be just like bourgeois - proletariat relationship where one serves another).
While the later interpreters (Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others) used Marx's statement to justify their deeds to the believers. They themselves are indeed atheists, but, as Russell stated, they those inhumanity not in the name of atheism, but in the name of "dogmatic Communism". And by "dogmatic", that means their "literal interpretation" of Marx's statement. By the idea of seeing religion as an opiate, they thought they have to abolish not only religion, but also the God (I mean, by the promotion of atheism) and even the believers. But all those are meant only to preserve their political power.
So, should I say, the original Marxism--that is, the one thought by Marx--says nothing about murdering believers or even wanting people to worship Marx as God. While the later interpreters, especially the Russian version (Stalin & Lenin), are more hostile to believers to preserve political power.
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""Art is not a matter of what, but how."
~ (attributed to) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
[Gallery] - Yes, I do various things.
Marx was atheist everyone knows that. He was ethicly Jewish and raised Christian but turned atheist the Origin of Species.
But isn't dogmatic Communism just a political atheistic religion?
Marx-Prophet
Dictator(Stalin, Mao, ect.)-God
Communist Manifesto-Holy Book(Bible, Quran, ect.)
Communist party-Religious organization
They even persured Lenin's, Stalin's, and Mao's bodys were they are worshiped like secular saints.
Yes but if Marx had never lived Stalin and Lenin wouldn't have been atheists. It was the Communist Manifesto that turned them atheist. Marx's veiws helped turn them into to the dictators that they were.
If there is one thing we can agree on is that communism doesn't work. In capitalist soceity atheist and believers can worship freely.
P.S. Do you believe in God?
I would like to say, "not really." As far as I know, as an ideology Communism--and by this I mean Marxism, the original one--does not promote atheism.
We can't blame Marx on how Lenin, Stalin, or Mao interpret his writing. It's like blaming certain religion because some radical interpreted it in certain way. Yes, Marxism did inspire Lenin to cast Bolshevik Revolution, but, like any other set of ideas, it is open to interpretation. So if we were to blame, it is those later interpreters (Lenin and friends) who is to be blamed.
A hundred percent communist state (not communism) may not work. But the idea of which still worth examining. We have to remember that socialism--which roots in Marxism--does help promote the idea of Liberation Theology in Latin America; and they succeed. And while we're on this, I don't think it needs "a capitalist society" to let believers and atheists worship freely--as long as there is religious freedom, it is possible to do so, because democratic or capitalist state does not guarantee that kind of human rights.
P.S. Yes, I believe in God, and I'm no communist either.
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""Art is not a matter of what, but how."
~ (attributed to) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
[Gallery] - Yes, I do various things.
"But the idea of which still worth examining."
How many more people need to die though?
Communism already killed like 200 million people. How many people need to die before we perfected it?
Well I believe in helping out the poor and that stuff because I'm influenced by my Judeo Christian beliefs because I'm a humanist. Socialism leads to state controling everything. I support limited government control over the econemy and the state.
What capitalist countries are you talking about?
You and me both.
And, I beg to differ, Communism did not kill million people. As I have already said, you can't blame the ideology; if you examine it carefully, Communism does not state anything about murdering believers. It is Lenin, Stalin, and Mao who are to be blamed. It is their thoughts, not the Communism.
You have to know, Communism--in this case, Marxism--is not a mere political ideology which manifestation can only be seen through state and government actions. It is a framework; a set of ideas which, we have to accept, help build the foundation of political analysis and theories. The idea of "class struggle" helps in determining what sort of conflict is happening in analyzing countries on comparative politics.
I disagree with Lenin and friends' state atheism, but I'm not against Communism. Again, because it is their (Lenin and friends) interpretation that went wrong.
As for the capitalist country, for example there is Malaysia. It is capitalist (as scaled by its economic system), but its religious freedom is doubtable. The same also applies for Colombia and Indonesia--while constitutionally the state does allow religious freedom, discrimination from the majority cannot be hindered, especially for the atheists.
Because "capitalist country" is an indicator of economic system, I guess it cannot be measured for social and/or religious freedom.
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""Art is not a matter of what, but how."
~ (attributed to) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
[Gallery] - Yes, I do various things.
"you can't blame the ideology"
So I guess I can't blame the National Socialist ideology for killing Jews, Slavs, homosexuals, gypsies, ect? I guess Hitler wasn't a true National Socialist and that one day there will be a true National Socialist country. Thats your argument.
Marx wrote about assimilating Germany's eastern neighbors. He wrote that before National Socalism was even thought of. Marxism ideology isn't free of mass murder.
One of my main beefs with communism is that it is you have to follow Marx and adopot it to your country. Why can't people come up with there own form of communism outside Marx?
In a developed capitailist country (such as the USA) there is relilious freedom. Malaysia, Colombia, and Indonesia are countires that hold some characteristics of a developed country but are not fully developed in terms of econemy and freedom. Eventually they will reach out statue. The more developed a countrie becomes the more free it gets.
This is a really intresting disscution.
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"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall."
Che Guevara